Our guest today, Autum Grimm, is not only an innovator, but also a pioneer, in a division of the channel space that had been left completely unexplored before the birth of her company. Today, she is responsible for revenue, demand generation, operations and business development as CRO at PartnerTap, a leading enterprise Partner Ecosystem Platform that allows companies to automate account mapping, control data shared with each partner, and enable sales teams to cross-sell with partners.
Growth of your partnerships can sometimes take a direction that may demand a new set of requirements to keep your partners engaged.
Dealing with any unforeseen situations can best be avoided by planning early & carefully, and regularly checking in with partners and tracking efforts.
Take care of your partners and your partners will take care of you. This, is how you truly reap long-term benefits for years to come.
Autum shares the 3 best kept secrets to creating long-term revenue streams within the channel:
Listen to the episode for all of Autum’s insights on achieving success within the channel.
(2:16) Autum Grimm’s background as a channel leader
(2:43) What do organizations need to consider if creating long-term revenue through partnerships is their end-goal?
(3:04) Secret #1: Build strong relationships with your channel partners
(5:29) Secret #2: Have a winning channel strategy
(10:46) Building loyalty and engaging channel partners
(13:55) Enabling partners to meet their goals
(15:54) When to give up on an unsuccessful partnership
(18:39) Secret #3: Track and measure success with your channel partners
(26:31) Invest in yourself as a channel professional
This production is brought to you by Magentrix ✨💜
Magentrix is a pioneer in platforms for partner ecosystem management and partner relationship management 🤝
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To learn about Magentrix PRM, please visit www.magentrix.com
Paul Bird 00:05
This is Partner Relationship Management: The Ultimate Channel Sales Podcast.
Welcome to another episode of the Ultimate Channel Sales Podcast. I'm your host, Paul Bird.
When you're first setting up your strategy for an indirect sales program, one thing that you might not initially consider is that as things progress and your partnerships pan out and start to mature, it becomes clear that having a long term plan in place for revenue growth would be wise.
Growth of your partnerships can sometimes take a direction that may demand a new set of requirements to keep your partners engaged.
Dealing with any unforeseen situations can best be avoided by planning early and carefully and regularly checking in with your partners and tracking efforts.
Take care of your partners and your partners take care of you.
This is how you truly reap long term benefits for years to come.
Our guest today is not only an innovator, but also a pioneer in a division of the channel space that has been left completely unexplored before the birth of her company.
Over the past 15 years, our guest has spent time selling to both domestic and international companies, as well as leading and developing top-producing sales and co-founded a platform to help enterprise reps connect directly with their peers at each partner and sell more together.
This platform has helped enterprise channel teams, such as LogMeIn, reach 500% in channel pipeline growth. As well as source 4 million in new business for companies such as SAP Concur.
Today, she's responsible for revenue demand generation, operations and business development as the chief revenue officer at PartnerTap, a leading enterprise partner ecosystem platform that allows companies to automate account mapping, control data shared with each partner and enables sales teams to cross-sell with partners.
She's here with us today to talk about the three best kept secrets to creating long term revenue streams within the channel.
Please welcome, Autum Grimm.
Welcome to the show Autum, it's great to have you here.
Autum Grimm 02:14
Great, pleasure to be here.
Paul Bird 02:15
Perfect. So, give us a little background about your career in the channel so far.
Autum Grimm 02:19
Well, so far over the last four years, I've been building a technology that enables salespeople in the channel to come together to make more revenue from their partnerships.
So, really been kind of busy doing that.
Paul Bird 02:35
And that's the PartnerTap that you talked to us about.
Autum Grimm 02:37
That's right, the PartnerTap, the solution that seems to be really popular right now, thankfully.
Paul Bird 02:42
Perfect. So, today's topic on the three best kept secrets for creating long term revenue. Let's start with the basics.
Why is this so important, when we're building partnerships that - long term revenue is obviously something that we need to consider - but, what are some of the things that organizations need to consider if this is their end goal?
Autum Grimm 03:04
You and I both know how important relationships are.
Paul Bird 03:07
Autum Grimm 03:04
And, the channel is really the key area where organizations can have tremendous success.
It's a motivator for organizations for a variety of reasons. It's a great way to diversify what you do. It's a great way to expand your reach in the market, and it's a great way to create sustainable revenue streams.
So, I think a lot of organizations are adopting the channel more, and they're also capitalizing and really digging down deep into what makes a successful channel more profitable.
And, you know, at the end of the day, relationships, they matter in everything we do.
Paul Bird 03:42
Autum Grimm 03:42
I think as humans, we're naturally built to interact and have relationships. So that's why really, I think this whole pandemic has been such a major pain in the neck. We can't interact like we naturally would do.
And, when you think about your most transcendent partnerships that you've either built in your current role or ones that you've built in the past, the ones that were the most prosperous were the ones where you had the best relationships.
And so that's, for us, what we really look at when we work with our customers is how can we build technology that enables better connectedness and allows them to really get down to where the revenue is quickly so they can spend more time on that human interaction?
And I think some of the things that people miss is when they're building their partnership, they don't take enough time in that first step, which is in that relationship, in that connectedness, because from here, all things will grow.
You can still have successful partnerships and revenue driven partnerships if you don't like the people you work with, that can happen.
But you and I both know that it's the ones that you really like and you really care about that everything else from the birth of the partnership to the evolution of revenue. That's where you're going to have your most success in the people you really care about.
Paul Bird 04:55
And, when you think about building the channel, one of the key aspects is you need to have the right people, right?
You need to have the right types of organizations inside your mix to make sure that this is your route to the market.
So, really taking into the relationship factor that looks like that could be almost secret number one when it comes to looking at how we have that sustained revenue growth is those relationships, right?
When you are building and identifying what your channel mix looks like, strong relationship, looks like it's got to be there.
Any other best practices as we look at from a partner selection perspective? Any other best practices that you can share with us?
Autum Grimm 05:37
Yeah, I think a winning strategy between you and the partners that you select is critical.
So, first, you have to like the people you do business with.
Paul Bird 05:43
Autum Grimm 05:44
But then the ones that you do and don't like, you have to build a strategy.
So, I think the determining factors between success and failure are deeply rooted in how well we can agree upon our strategy.
Paul Bird 06:00
Autum Grimm 06:00
What is going to make us successful and do we both understand the metrics that we will come together on and really the foundational principles that we can agree will determine whether we are successful or not?
And again, that comes from just that great first initial establishment of the partnership.
Like, are we really on track? Do we have the same cultural alignment? Do we have some of the consistencies that we're looking for for the customers that we deliver business on?
Our partnership between our companies, Paul, started because we had customers in common and we started talking.
Paul Bird 06:38
Absolutely. Yes, we did.
Autum Grimm 06:39
And we thought, what can we really do to help our customers be more effective in the channel?
And that came from a respect between each other in wanting each other to do well.
And we really take that really wholeheartedly into play when we are building out the companies - you only have so much time.
Paul Bird 06:57
There's only so many hours in the day, that's for sure.
Autum Grimm 06:59
Right. So if you're going to spend whatever time you're going to spend with the companies that -
Whatever company touches my company, they're going to be successful. I know that because my company is successful.
So if I'm going to bring value to their world, I want those people to be in line with my strategy and my vision for the future of the world when it comes to the channel.
Mark Brigman over at …
Paul Bird 07:19
Autum Grimm 07:20
He has got some outstanding programs and content where a person at really any variety can just jump in and either brush up on how to build a great strategy or how to deliver the optimal results from a channel.
And, man, it's really fun. And that goes back to doing business with people you like.
It's hard not to like Mark Brigman.
Paul Bird 07:42
Mark's great. He's fantastic.
Autum Grimm 07:44
I know! Anybody that spends a little bit of time with that guy on the phone, you're just like, oh man, he really makes you think and really take a step back and think about your strategy.
Paul Bird 07:53
Autum Grimm 07:53
What's awesome about doing that part of the work of the partnership, it just comes naturally to people in the channel because most of us are people people. We like to do the conversing and the strategy around how we're going to make each other successful.
Paul Bird 08:05
Yeah, there's not too many introverts in the channel. It's a lot of extroverts like us.
Autum Grimm 08:09
Yeah, right. That's true.
Paul Bird 08:11
So, looking to peel back the onion when it looks at selecting the right channel, you can have a great relationship with somebody. You can be in alignment from a strategy perspective, but I don't think those two are just keys for success.
Are there anything from a foundational level, when we talk about foundations, when it comes to something tactical you're looking for in order to make sure you've got the right people on your team?
Autum Grimm 08:34
Yeah, putting the right plan in place, absolutely, with the right partner. You have to have those two dots in alignment.
So the way that you do that is you agree upon a single measure of success, whether it's revenue, whether it's units, whether it's production volume, whatever.
Whatever that is, the two of you need to agree that we're going to go and build something and this is how we're going to value it. Because if we're not talking about value, then we're just talking.
We don't really have something that we know we're going to go produce for our customers.
And typically, your customers will tell you what they want. So for most of the customers that I work with, it’s revenue. I want to know that I'm making more money, period.
And so that's what we focus on with the partners that we work with, is how can we package the solutions that we provide with our partners, if it's a co-sell, so that the end result is the metric that the customer cares about?
Paul Bird 09:23
Autum Grimm 09:24
And the second part of that is knowing: how are we going to depend upon each other to deliver this together? What do I need to have happen so that I don't let my partner down?
If I don't deliver my product to the customer in this way, if it's a technology partnership, then we're not going to have success the way that we've agreed upon it to the customer.
Paul Bird 09:42
Autum Grimm 09:42
And that's super, super critical.
And the third part of this is, if we have any people where I've got multi-department relationships. So maybe I've got a division of my company that delivers an aspect of this partnership. That particular department needs to be treated just like a partner.
So if I deliver something different, like I'm a services deliverable and my partner's a technology deliverable and then we work with a partner, we've got to make sure that everybody is held to the same standards and the same value metrics.
Paul Bird 10:08
Autum Grimm 10:09
So that we end up delivering that same consistent result.
And I like to draw from some of these analysts because they sit around all day and pick apart our businesses and our industry.
And McKinsey, man, they really are doing a great job really like digging into what companies need right now. And so I recommend that particular trench for data and analytics and for folks in the field that are looking to put together business cases.
Or just get a deeper understanding of how to really materialize those concepts day to day, look at McKinsey, they're doing some great stuff.
Paul Bird 10:42
Awesome, I'll definitely have a look at them. I haven't seen them recently.
Now another key part, as your goal is long term, sustainable revenue through the channel. But, once you have that right partner, how important is loyalty in that relationship?
And is there a strategy on building that loyalty, having kind of a cadence, engagement? What are your thoughts on that?
Autum Grimm 11:04
Absolutely. So, it's interesting, right?
My technology works with every CRM. My technology works with as many PRMs as I've come in contact with that my customers have.
Always, always, always protect your partner’s customers as if they were your own, as if they were your family and you don't want anything to happen to them.
And so if you notice that there is any trouble in your partner's customer base, where they're looking at something different, fight like hell to retain them.
Paul Bird 11:32
Autum Grimm 11:32
Like you're going to lose your partner, like you're going to lose your customer.
Because, I mean, as far as loyalty is concerned, I think it's important. I think it's super important because at the end of the day, trust is something that you can get really quickly, but you can lose it even faster.
And trust is the foundation of partnerships.
And so, I've been a little monogamous since the early days of PartnerTap, for a variety of reasons. But so many of my competitors, they want to spread the floor and be everything to everybody.
And I think the challenge with that is it's hard to build trust when you're promising the world to everybody. Eventually somebody comes up short.
And so you have to find like, I think part of that comes from really knowing who we are as a company and who we want to serve and where we think we can do the most value for what we deliver right now.
And so I think it's twofold like loyalty, trust and what you're good at.
If you stick to that and you really just focus on that particular direction, then you don't have to worry about being disloyal because you're not. You're just - that's where I'm going to live.
Paul Bird 12:34
Yeah, it's that consistency in everything when it comes to trust.
Almost being caught doing something right by your partner and that breeds the loyalty.
Autum Grimm 12:43
Yeah, it's something that I struggle with because, I mean, I've been married for 25 years. Almost 27 I've been with my husband.
And so for me, even at my core in my DNA, I am a monogamous, trusting, a this is where I want to live. Where I feel like I have really good relationships in my personal life, in my business life, in my customers.
I'm obsessed with providing value.
Paul Bird 13:06
And is that just a mentality? Is that something that you can communicate to partners? Is that something you can teach partners?
Or do you think that's just part of your makeup?
Autum Grimm 13:16
Well, I think it comes back to finding the partners that match your culture and your strategy.
Paul Bird 13:20
Autum Grimm 13:20
Like, there were companies early on that we talked to that we didn't partner with that got bumped out of the process pretty quickly that we don't do business with because we're just not there from a company standpoint, from a strategy standpoint.
But look, I mean, if our customers are driving us to reach bigger and do more with our partners than we're going to evolve and change.
But I think partnerships are super important and if you're not living that and you're in this business in the channel, it's not going to work because you're selling something that you don't live by.
Paul Bird 13:54
And, it sounds very nice and engaging and that relationships are positive all the time, but there is a point where you're going to have some challenges. And is there anything that you can do to help ensure that partners meet their goals?
And if they don't, how do you best address it knowing that we really need to maintain and keep the relationship in place and healthy?
Autum Grimm 14:19
Yeah. Well, you have to manage and measure what you say is making success because the best way to trust somebody is to win with them.
Paul Bird 14:26
Autum Grimm 14:26
Whenever I win with somebody, I learn a lot about them.
I learn how they celebrate. I learn how they get to the win. I learn about how they track their success. I learn about communication styles.
But, at the end of the day, if you're not winning with your partner, it's probably not a good partnership. So metrics are critical, right?
So I think companies that don't share data are untrustworthy.
Paul Bird 14:49
Autum Grimm 14:50
It's hard to trust them.
But it used to be a world where we started from decades ago, where companies shared data but they never talked about it.
So if your I.T. or security folks found out that you were hoisting spreadsheets or sharing partner related data or technology secrets with each other, you're going to get fired.
Paul Bird 15:08
Yes, you would.
Autum Grimm 15:09
And in some companies today, that still is the way that they share data and they still get fired.
But there's another very, very popular thought process that's emerging where companies are saying, if you don't share data, we're going to fire you because you won't reach your metrics and you won't be successful.
So, I think it's the same with partnerships like you have to think differently.
And if my partner does want to work with other companies, as long as they’re upfront with me and I understand where I fit into the arena of working with my partners.
I'm fair because I'm a competitor, and I believe that my offering and my partnership is very valuable.
It's time to set the bar so I can keep working and I can continue to drive my brand first in the hearts and minds of my partners.
Paul Bird 15:52
Everyone's working toward success, right? And in a lot of cases, we reach those goals. So what happens when we don't reach them?
Well, if we weren't set up for success in the first place, then we have that to blame. But is there a point, though, where it's time to bring the relationship to a close?
Autum Grimm 16:10
Absolutely. If you're not making money.
Paul Bird 16:12
Yeah, in a lot of cases, that's true.
Autum Grimm 16:14
That's the key. If you're not making money.
And you set out to it, right, you have those established conversations. We've had those conversations.
Paul Bird 16:21
Autum Grimm 16:21
Here's what we're going to do. We're going to get to know each other a little bit. We're not going to do anything. We're just going to get to know each other.
And then when we find a customer that we have in common, we're going to work on that customer, and figure out what that value is for our customer.
Paul Bird 16:31
Autum Grimm 16:32
That's, I think, the best way to really identify what you can do for partnerships, when you have the time, for certain partnerships.
Some partnerships are different like technology, right?
Does our technology work? Is there a market for it? Great. Let's bring that together, and let's move fast.
In the long tail of the market, that's the key.
If you're in a channel that drives through co-sell or OEM, there are different ways to value and measure and build success and to determine when you're going to pull the plug and when you're going to bring people in.
It's interesting too, I've been thinking a lot about that, like when do you fire and when do you stop working with a partner and how does that work?
There's different ways, right?
Like you can be that person that's like the passive aggressive where you just don't talk to them until you bump into them and it's like, look, you're a jerk. And these are all the things you messed up on.
And that's going to happen because we're coming out of the shadows and we're actually getting in front of each other again. You're going to see these people eventually.
You want to have those conversations consistently. It's just like employees. You don't ever want it to be a surprise when someone needs to be let go.
Paul Bird 17:35
Autum Grimm 17:36
It's the same with a partnership. Like, you don't want it to be a surprise where it's like, oh hey, by the way, we're not working together and I'm working with your competitor.
Paul Bird 17:43
I've had to do it very, very few times in the past.
And it was when I was the partner, I was in the channel, and I was working with a vendor.
And what happened was there was a situation where they were apparently a pure channel company and they took a deal direct on me.
And I called them and I said this really is putting a strain on our relationship. And this affects my company. It's not a big deal, wasn't a lot of money.
And I said, look, if you ever do that again, I'm never selling your stuff again. And he did.
Autum Grimm 18:14
You're a kind person.
Paul Bird 18:16
He did and I moved a 1,000,000 dollar book of business to their competitor overnight.
Autum Grimm 18:20
Paul Bird 18:21
Just to make a couple bucks on some hardware.
So we've got our two secrets here, right?
It's making sure we got the right people in place and making sure that they are culturally aligned with our company.
Then we've got that strength of the relationship so we can have the loyalty and the commitment from the partners.
And I think there's been a common thread through our discussion that maybe our third secret is that track and measure.
Autum Grimm 18:46
That's right. Yeah.
Paul Bird 18:47
So, analytics, like I personally love to track everything, but what challenges do some people face in tracking and measuring success with their channel partners?
Autum Grimm 19:00
Well, there's technology out there, thankfully. That you can get your hands on.
Paul Bird 19:04
Autum Grimm 19:05
That put those processes in place.
But they're also really good consulting firms that are coming around with best practices and ways to take partnerships and put them into categories where you maybe never have done that before.
I don't think that companies really need to create super complicated tier structures for partners. It's like categories and then a few levels of metrics of success so that you can drive winning outcomes for the big channels.
But at the end of the day, for mid-market companies and then emerging enterprise, it's like creating a way to categorize and organize these relationships such that you can drive success and then value them.
I think at the end of the day, most companies in today's market are not looking to scale the channel with a lot of headcount.
Paul Bird 19:55
Yes, they want to do it with automation, for sure.
Autum Grimm 19:58
Right. Which is the maturity of the channel.
I think that's happening just like we went through that with, I think customers and the knowledge around what it takes to have customer acquisition costs.
We really didn't have that data and that knowledge point going back 15, 20 years ago. That emerged through sophisticated platforms and better analytics and more professional roles around what it meant to have real customer experience.
Same with partner experience. I think we're starting to see this is the decade where that whole area of the business is growing and becoming more sophisticated.
And, it's really interesting. I get so many calls in our funnel from companies that are just curious. They just want to know what in the heck is this? What is this technology?
And they're like, holy crap, when they see it, pardon my French. If that's offensive.
People just don't know that there are new types of technology. So I would always, always, always push people to just find - just stay online, Google tech because tech is changing so much around the channel right now.
Paul Bird 21:02
All the time.
And if you find that tech that fits within your wheelhouse, it can make a big difference.
I know that, in my history, I was a very early adopter of Salesforce, like 2002. And bringing that structure into place, it literally doubled our sales within the first year because we were following the methodology so well.
And even in the last five years looking at new tools for selling, new tools for sales management, new tools for marketing. You can get a leg up on your competition pretty quickly just by having the right tech.
But when we look at how we measure this, are we measuring it as a whole or from let's drag it back to looking at those partner relationships?
Do you think you evaluate the success of your channel as a whole or do you bring it right down to the individual performance of each partner?
Are we winning as a group or is this let's get down to the individual partner and look at: how successful are they?
Autum Grimm 22:01
Well, it depends upon your business, like where you're at in your organization.
If you have a really built out, big channel, then yeah, you want to look at partner by partner. And, obviously, how much money are you getting?
But I think if you're a one man team, which we find a lot of these people are one man teams and they're growing, they're hiring people and they're trying to do as much as they can.
You can't boil the ocean. And so you can't beat yourself up that you didn't do something if you're a one man wrecking crew.
But what you can do is start to go, alright, that 80/20 rule, 80% of my revenue comes from 20% of my partners.
I'm going to focus there first because it's all about driving more revenue.
So I'm going to enable that group and then I'm going to double down, find out what forensically made them successful and then I’m going to go back and see, can I apply that to the other remaining patch.
If not, cut bait and work within that one particular revenue area. Your market, your customers will tell you what partners make the most sense.
And there is something to be said about innovation. So constantly reaching outside of the norm and bringing in new types of partners.
But I think there is a lot going on where I think a lot of channel folks are going: we have so many partners, we have a lot of pipeline, it's just we want it to be better. We want better pipeline and we want better relationships with our partners that we have.
And so that is the route of revenue. Not spreading yourself a mile wide, but an inch wide and a mile deep.
Paul Bird 22:23
So if you take that 20% of your partners that are generating 80% of your revenue, how do you think having these scheduled cadences, you know, we role in the relationships into this.
Do you think you just naturally will communicate more and how important are those cadences that ongoing communication with those 20% that hit your home runs?
Autum Grimm 23:45
It's super important.
I mean, I want to do business with people that care who I am and what my business is doing. I want to do business with you. That's who I am.
And most of the people that I do business with, it's the same thing. I know a lot about the people personally, what's going on with them and what gets them to their goals.
And I think that all the people that work for me when they deal with our partners, it's the same thing.
You have to have that level of culture if you're going to build a channel and you're going to have partnerships. You have to really care about what's happening to them and to you for your customers to get that care.
Paul Bird 24:19
Autum Grimm 24:19
And this sounds kind of squishy. But at the end of the day, that's what this is all about is the delivered result that’s squishy, which is success and revenue.
And humans are motivated by a lot of different factors. But, not holding back the one factor of caring about the results and your people and what happens. That's like a robot.
You might as well just go get a bot to run your channel.
Paul Bird 24:42
It's all about caring, right?
If people do care.
Autum Grimm 24:45
Group hug. Group hug.
Paul Bird 24:47
No, seriously, if you show up every day.
Autum Grimm 24:49
Paul Bird 24:49
And you show up with purpose and you care about the company you work for, you care about the people you work with, you care about your customers, you care about your channel.
I think you'll find that you become a lot more human, right?
You're not just an email or a phone call.
Autum Grimm 25:04
That's wealth, right?
Paul Bird 25:05
Autum Grimm 25:05
You can get rich. But if you want wealth, it's not just money. It's everything.
It's like great partnerships that have sustainability,
Paul Bird 25:14
Autum Grimm 25:15
It's respect in the marketplace, it's a brand that people think is the number one brand in the market.
And I'd be lying if I said that that didn't get me up in the morning and make me excited to do what I do. It does.
I think about: how can I help every one of my partners be successful?
I think there's enough valuable business out there for my partners and I to go get to where the partners that work with me. We're going to win, we're going to win big and we're going to all have wealth.
There's enough business out there. Especially right now in the channel.
You joked about me being a pioneer. I always joke and I call myself Annie Oakley because first of all, there's not a lot of women in building tech companies in general, but in this particular channel world, there's not a lot of women founders. And we're a female founded company, so we do things a little differently.
Paul Bird 26:03
Yes, and it looks like you're doing a lot of things right, that's for sure.
So let's start to wrap up. We've got these three points, right?
It's about making sure you've got the channel strategy to start. I mean, that's first and foremost.
And then we've got to make sure we have the right people on the bus, the right people in the channel. We're going to make sure those relationships are in place and that we are building out that loyalty.
And then we got to make sure that we've got the measurements in place, right? Can't manage what you don't measure.
So any kind of final parting thoughts or advice to people that are maybe in different stages of their channel maturity and some of the things they can do to work towards this kind of sustainable revenue growth?
Autum Grimm 26:43
Yeah, you have to invest in yourself, constantly. As a professional.
Paul Bird 26:48
Autum Grimm 26:48
Like, that's why I dropped the Mark Brigman idea out there for those listeners that are interested.
And, go back to school all the time and learn, get involved, talk to people.
And, not to put too much philosophy in here, but I live my life by some bigger guiding principles that - look, we all have one ticket, one ticket in life, and you never know when that ticket is going to get punched and you're done.
So if you wake up every day with specific metrics that you will guide your life by and that is reflected in your business and in the company you keep. You're going to be doing alright, you're not going to fail. So, investing in yourself is a core part of that.
Like not let yourself get crusty and stale and disappointed in your results. You have no one to blame but yourself.
So if you're doing the right things and you're constantly looking ahead and growing and reaching and stretching and you're enjoying the ride. I think your partners will pick up on that and they'll want to do business with you.
They'll be attracted to that.
And gosh darn it, you're going to have some fun.
Paul Bird 27:48
Well, that is insightful and very sage advice, Autum.
So, thank you very much for being the guest on our show today. It's been a pleasure to have you.
Autum Grimm 27:57
Thank you. It's always my pleasure.
Paul Bird 28:02
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